The Sky at Night - Nicola Fox, NASA and the Next Frontier
The Sky at Night - Nicola Fox, NASA and the Next Frontier
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00:00In 1990, I graduated from here, Imperial College, with a degree in physics.
00:09Back then, I would have never thought that I'd get to work on so many interesting projects.
00:16From building satellites to working on the Gemini telescopes here on Earth, and the James
00:21Webb telescope up in space, I made my love of the cosmos my career, eventually ending
00:28up here on telly.
00:29This is what the power of the moon looks like up close, and much, much more.
00:37But there was another woman in your class, Nicola Fox, whose skyrocketing career took
00:41her in a different direction, to America.
00:44Originally from hitching in Hertfordshire, Nikki's now the Associate Administrator for
00:48the Science Mission Directorate at NASA, basically, head of science.
00:53It's an impressive achievement, and she's the first Brit to hold that position.
00:57So we were so pleased that she was able to give up some of her precious time to come
01:00and speak to us about Nikki, NASA, and the next frontier.
01:05Welcome to The Sky At Night.
01:27Since it was established in 1958, NASA has grown enormously.
01:41It's become synonymous with space exploration.
01:44For billions of people all around the world, if it's space, it must be NASA.
01:49As well as putting humans in space, NASA has explored the solar system and beyond, changing
01:54our understanding of the universe.
02:00It currently has over 100 active science missions, and today, we're meeting the first British
02:05person to oversee them all, Dr Nikki Fox.
02:08Hello.
02:09Lovely to see you.
02:10So, well, I'll be taking a walk down memory lane.
02:13I'm dying to see how much we actually recognise.
02:16I'll be discussing how her love of the skies began, and what the future may hold.
02:22I'm really looking forward to seeing her again.
02:24Yeah, it's always fun.
02:25See you later.
02:26See you later.
02:30Born in 1968, Nicola Justine Fox grew up in Hitchin, a small market town in southern England.
02:38It was the year that Britain saw steam trains phased out, and the first motorway completed.
02:45Meanwhile, the world watched as the space race unfolded, with America about to send
02:50the first men into orbit around the moon.
02:54So, I was keen to discover how that backdrop influenced the child that rose up to the highest
02:59ranks at NASA.
03:01Well, Nikki, before we look back, I want to start with today, and you're the Associate
03:05Administrator for the Science Mission Directorate at NASA.
03:08Yes.
03:09Which sounds very impressive, but what does it mean?
03:13Well, it is very impressive.
03:14Yeah, good.
03:16It means I'm the head of science, and so I get to manage and look after and nurture about
03:22140 missions, whether they're still being designed or whether they are in space, covering
03:28five science disciplines from the sun, the planets, and of course all the way out to
03:33the far reaches of our universe.
03:34Well, I promise we'll get to all of that, but let's go back to your beginnings.
03:38Where did your connection to the universe come from?
03:40What was the start of that story?
03:42Well, my father would love to say that it was all his inspiration, because I was eight
03:46months old when Neil Armstrong walked on the moon, and he took me out of my cot and propped
03:52me up in front of the TV and gave me a running commentary.
03:55And, of course, that's really a lovely story, but he always instilled in me just a general
04:01love of space, and particularly NASA.
04:04He was absolutely fascinated by NASA and would often say, you know, can there be any better
04:09job than working for NASA?
04:11And so that was always something that stuck with me, even though I didn't think it was
04:14ever remotely a possibility that I would go to work for them.
04:17And so is the first memory you have of that sort of watching the later Apollo missions?
04:21No, not really.
04:22I think I was about three, and we were on a family holiday in Spain.
04:26And one night, my dad just, you know, got some objects in the bedroom and had, well,
04:31this is the sun, and this is the Earth, and this is the moon, and the Earth goes around
04:34the sun, and the moon goes around the Earth.
04:36And I was sort of fascinated just about even the celestial mechanics of our own solar system.
04:43And so the focus is on your dad in those stories, but there's your mum as well.
04:47I know you've talked about her role in inspiring you to think about space and get involved
04:52in science, really.
04:53Actually, my mum was just very quietly determined and would always say, you can do whatever
04:59you want as long as you work hard enough.
05:01So I always sort of think that maybe she didn't dream of walking on the moon or sailing
05:06amongst the stars, but she was damn sure I would have every opportunity if I wanted to.
05:11Now, somebody told us there was a strong interest in drama when you were at school.
05:15What was it about drama, being on stage, that appealed?
05:18I'm not sure.
05:19I just really loved it.
05:20I loved acting, and I really loved drama.
05:23And I had even said this, you know, I think maybe I'd like to go to drama school.
05:28And my mum, again, sort of said, well, I think you should probably have something to
05:32fall back on, you know, in case drama doesn't pan out.
05:36And so I did physics.
05:38There's a surprising number of scientists who have sort of amateur theatre backgrounds
05:42or school theatre.
05:43Do you think it helps a bit?
05:45I mean, I think there's a confidence maybe in doing public speaking, but I actually used
05:50to be terrified of doing public speaking.
05:52There's one thing to pretend to be someone else and, you know, adopt an identity.
05:57But when you actually stand there and you're yourself, and you're maybe explaining your
06:01work, and you're terrified someone's going to either ask you a question you don't know
06:04the answer to, or even worse, tell you it's all wrong.
06:08So for a long time with my public speaking, I would actually have my talks written to
06:14almost the detail of, good morning, I am, and sometimes even crossed out good morning
06:20and changed it to good afternoon if I was giving a talk in the afternoon.
06:22Just so you had it there.
06:24Just because I felt much more confident if I had it in my hand.
06:29Now, I actually hate using a script.
06:31I find it distracting.
06:33You mentioned confidence, and of course a lot of that for lots of people comes from school.
06:37You went to an all-girls school.
06:39Do you think that helped?
06:40I certainly never had any idea of stereotypes.
06:44I think there was a very nurturing environment.
06:47I loved science.
06:48I particularly loved physics.
06:50And so I did maths and physics and chemistry and biology.
06:52And the next thing, the next sort of natural thing was to go to university.
06:56It was just what I wanted to do.
06:58And I always wanted to do a PhD.
07:00And the only way you can really do a PhD is to do a degree first.
07:05So there you go.
07:06So, you know, that was kind of the process to getting to a PhD.
07:12So Nikki set off to do her degree in London with a mission to learn more about the stars.
07:19At the age of 18, Nicola Fox arrived here at Imperial College London to study physics, where I had enrolled too.
07:29The year was 1987.
07:32Margaret Thatcher was starting her third term as Prime Minister.
07:36Power suits were the latest in female fashion, and it seemed women were taking charge.
07:42But the reality was very different.
07:45And Nikki and I were about to join a class where less than a fifth of the students were women.
07:52I'm meeting Nikki back in the same physics building where we both studied.
08:01Nikki, oh, lovely to see you.
08:06Oh, it's great to be back here.
08:08It is surreal to be back here after all those years.
08:12Now, when you first came to Imperial, was it what you were expecting?
08:16Because, I mean, the ratio of men to women was awful, especially in physics.
08:19The big change for me was the sheer amount of people.
08:23You know, I came from a very small physics class where there were maybe six of us.
08:27And then to find myself in that enormous lecture theatre with, what, 240 students where I was just sort of, you know, a head in a sea of undergraduates.
08:39And I think that was the biggest shock for me, was just the sheer vastness.
08:44I never had that feeling that girls don't do maths or science.
08:49And actually, until I was applying for college and when, you know, my parents would tell their friends,
08:56oh, yes, you know, Nicola's going to go and do physics.
08:59And they would sort of look at them like maybe there was something wrong with me.
09:02Or, you know, really, physics? That's unusual.
09:05Yeah, that's unusual.
09:06Exactly.
09:07It's that phrase, isn't it?
09:08Exactly.
09:09Why weren't we 50-50?
09:11But do you think going to a girls' school made you more likely to do physics?
09:16I think so.
09:17I'd love to say, I mean, I loved science from a really tiny child.
09:22I found everything, you know, the sort of the logic of it, the why does this happen?
09:26And the reasoning and then the sort of the scientific method.
09:29And I love doing experiments.
09:30And I really hope I could say that that would have been enough.
09:34And maybe peer pressure would not have got to me.
09:37I don't know that's true.
09:38Yes. And I think I'm similar.
09:40I think the draw to science, and especially to space, was stronger.
09:44Oh, huge.
09:45Than any obstacles they were going to lob in my way.
09:48Absolutely.
09:49And just that sort of the inspiration of what it takes to launch a person
09:54or, you know, a rocket off this planet.
09:57That's just inspirational.
09:59And that stuck with me all my life, obviously.
10:02Still does. Still does.
10:05Hence the job.
10:06Hence the job.
10:07Did you feel nervous about putting your hand up?
10:09Terrified. Terrified.
10:11It's really interesting when particularly young girls or young women ask me,
10:15you know, a piece of advice.
10:17My piece of advice always is ask the question.
10:20I was terrified to ask a question because I would think everyone would think I was stupid.
10:25Because if I was asking a question, then I mustn't know the answer.
10:28I now realise that probably 90% of the people in that room were feeling exactly the same.
10:33And thinking of the same question.
10:35And if somebody had only asked the question, we all would have been really relieved.
10:38Well, shall we go for a wander and look around?
10:40Sounds wonderful. I'm dying to see how much we actually recognise.
10:43I know. I think very little.
10:45Very little. Because this used to be a library.
10:47I know.
10:48I know. Where's my library?
10:49It's a student common room now. They've hidden it somewhere.
10:53While the library may have gone, the next stop on our mini tour had the memories flooding back.
11:01That's theatre one.
11:03Yes.
11:04Still the same sign.
11:05This is creepy.
11:07Dance, indeed. Look exactly the same.
11:10We've even got the greenish blackboards down there.
11:14I wonder if they still use chalk.
11:16Yes, I assume they must.
11:17And remember they would always write on the bottom one and then shove it up.
11:20Yes, I have a blackboard.
11:21And then move it down. Yes, yes.
11:23Oh, happy days. We should go look for where we used to sit.
11:31Physics has many different disciplines.
11:33So not everyone sat in these rows had their sights on studying the stars.
11:40So you came and studied physics at Imperial, but was sort of a space always the goal?
11:45Absolutely. I think it really was.
11:48But to be honest, I'd only thought about astrophysics.
11:51You know, when you think about space, you sort of think about studying the stars.
11:55And so I thought astrophysics.
11:57And so to come here and find that I could study not just distant stars and galaxies,
12:03but I could actually study things that happened in and around our own planet.
12:06And, you know, our own planet is the most important one because it's the one we live on.
12:10I think I was the same.
12:11So when I heard about space physics, you can actually send probes out to these places.
12:16I didn't realise this was possible.
12:18Right, right. Totally.
12:20I love when we get the pictures back from Curiosity and Perseverance on Mars.
12:24And they're like, they're like postcards.
12:26You can step into them.
12:28I know, you do.
12:29And it just gives you that feeling of, wow, that must be what it's like to be on another planet.
12:36After a year away studying satellite engineering,
12:39Nikki returned to Imperial College for her PhD,
12:43for which she researched the ionosphere, a layer of the Earth's upper atmosphere.
12:49What was your thesis? What was the subject you looked at?
12:52So I studied the northern lights, but I looked at the ionosphere.
12:56How is that connected to everything that comes from the sun?
12:59So as the sun is driving everything, how does the ionosphere change?
13:04And one of the ways you can monitor that is looking at the aurora,
13:06because that's essentially a large current system right over our heads.
13:10Someone actually dug out this.
13:13Wow. My thesis.
13:15My thesis. Yes.
13:16What I loved about it was here on page three, this quote here.
13:21Will you read it for me?
13:22Oh, yes.
13:23What was God doing before he created the universe?
13:26And the answer from St. Augustine is inventing a hell for people who ask such questions.
13:32Yes. I know everybody else had kind of an inspirational quote,
13:35but that one just really spoke to me.
13:37It's so funny.
13:38Yes, because when I read this, I was hooting with laughter.
13:40I couldn't help it.
13:42Because it sums us up.
13:44The troublemakers who are trying to find out.
13:46Yes. So, yeah, the idea of, but I just told you that.
13:49No, I know, but why?
13:51It was always why.
13:55By constantly looking up and asking why,
13:59Niki completed her PhD and became Dr Nicola Fox.
14:05And a chance encounter along the way took her in a direction she had never imagined.
14:11I had gone to a conference in Alaska and I was giving a poster presentation
14:17and this scientist sort of was standing there listening to me.
14:20And he came over to me and he said, that's really interesting.
14:23Could I interest you in a postdoc at NASA?
14:27And I mean, it never occurred to me as a British student citizen
14:34that I could actually go and work for NASA.
14:37And so I sort of said, yes, yes, that would be lovely.
14:41And I had to go through a very complicated, very long application process,
14:45but I stuck with it.
14:46And I was lucky enough to get selected.
14:48How did that feel?
14:49I do remember I was sitting upstairs.
14:51I got an email first that just said, you know, you've been successful.
14:56I actually got the second highest grade in there and I kept reading it
15:00and reading it and thinking they must mean something else.
15:03You know, so anyway, I do remember sort of wandering up the hallway
15:06and going into Stan Cowley's office and saying,
15:09so I think I actually got in.
15:13Still not sure.
15:14And he said, what do you mean you think?
15:16And so I showed him the email and he said, yeah, I think he did.
15:20Second highest grade.
15:21I think he did.
15:22I think he did.
15:23So, yes, it was a great day.
15:26As Nicky's stellar career took off, the focus of her work became heliophysics,
15:32the study of the sun and its interactions with the rest of the solar system.
15:38So you stuck with heliophysics.
15:40Why was that?
15:41I think because I loved the idea that it is our relationship on our planet
15:47with our neighboring star.
15:49There's so much in that.
15:51You know, we rely on the star to keep us alive.
15:54That's what makes our amazing planet habitable.
15:57We're in that Goldilocks region and you can have life here on Earth.
16:01But the sun is a very tempestuous star.
16:04And what a lot of people don't know is our sun,
16:07as its atmosphere is expanding away from the sun,
16:10it kind of carves out a protective bubble for our whole solar system
16:15as we're orbiting around the Milky Way.
16:17It actually keeps the vagaries of interstellar space out.
16:21And so it makes our solar system habitable.
16:24Three, two, one, lift off.
16:28Eventually, Nicky became a project scientist for the daring Parker Solar Probe.
16:34She wanted to discover the mysteries of the sun
16:37and there was only one way to find out.
16:39But we have to go there to finally go up and touch the sun.
16:43And so how are we going to do it?
16:46They were going to build a probe
16:48that would be the first to fly through the sun's atmosphere,
16:52getting a view of our star never seen before.
16:55And so we are ready.
16:57We have the perfect payload and we will touch the sun.
17:03The mission was a success.
17:06The Parker Solar Probe started sending back data and is still going strong,
17:11flying closer to the sun than any other mission before.
17:17And it was during this project all Nicky's incredible work was recognised.
17:24You're out there doing your career for 20 years,
17:27but then you get appointed head of heliophysics at NASA.
17:30Yes. What a milestone.
17:32It was, but actually it was a very tough decision for me at the time.
17:36It was a job I had always wanted,
17:38really always just thought it would be amazing to have.
17:41But we had literally just launched the Parker Solar Probe mission,
17:46which I'd worked on for years and years,
17:48and I was the project scientist for that.
17:50And so I had a, it was a tough choice because there's a team I love.
17:54There's a team, you know, that you're really part of.
17:58You're so excited for the mission to do all the amazing things
18:01that you've actually designed it to do.
18:03So when I was actually offered the job,
18:05I had that sort of pit in the stomach of, oh, I really want it,
18:09but could I have it a year later?
18:11It's not quite yet.
18:12Well, not quite yet.
18:14And, but, you know, it was, and actually they were very gracious
18:16and they did wait for me, actually for nearly a year, to be honest,
18:21because it was so important to me to stay with the team
18:24to be able to launch Parker Solar Probe together.
18:29Niki spent five years focused on our son
18:32until the next promotion came calling
18:35to her current role as Head of Science,
18:38responsible for projects covering the entire universe.
18:44But I'm glad to see that playful Niki is still in there.
18:48Do you know, there's always something I've wanted to do.
18:51What? Come here.
18:59I love it, I love it.
19:05You're so bad.
19:14I won't say.
19:29While many areas of Imperial's physics department
19:33have been completely modernised,
19:35we head to another room that is full of reminders of our past.
19:40All right, then.
19:42Ah!
19:43Second-year lab. Yes. Love it.
19:46This does look familiar again. It does.
19:48So I did my second-year lab project when you presented them.
19:51I was right here, so I got everybody coming in through the door.
19:55It's a great place to be. It sounds like a good location.
19:58It was. I like the optical benches.
20:00Yes. We didn't have those, and we didn't have those computers.
20:04Computers. There were a few computers.
20:07Oh, but look, look, look.
20:09Oh, the tap. The ancient taps.
20:11Just wanted taps, yes.
20:13I feel like I'm home.
20:14It just brings back memories.
20:16So the fundamentals are the same,
20:18but it's just the equipment on top has rapidly changed.
20:21Yeah, actually, it's kind of cool.
20:23I mean, it's classic physics lab... Yes.
20:28..but adapting to all the new technology.
20:30Yes. That's really neat.
20:32Oh, my. Yes. Oh, gosh.
20:35Yes. Oh, gosh, yes.
20:37I haven't seen this in years. That's really quite frightening, actually.
20:41Yes. Yes.
20:43While it's always nice to reminisce,
20:45I couldn't let Nicky go without asking about one of NASA's missions
20:49that she's involved in that is very close to my heart.
20:53So, I have a confession. Yes.
20:55Because I am a self-certified lunatic. Yes, me too.
20:58Oh, good. Yes. I love the moon. Absolutely.
21:01And we're going back.
21:02We are, and it's so exciting and it's so inspirational.
21:05You know, the last time we went to the moon with the Apollo programme,
21:09the US went as a single country.
21:11Now we are going with the Artemis programme.
21:15We're going kind of as a global community.
21:17And it's such a wonderful feeling.
21:19So, we've launched Artemis 1. Yes.
21:22We launched that a few years ago, and that was amazing.
21:26We did science on Artemis 1.
21:29In the Orion capsule that was part of the mission,
21:34it was the capsule that went around the moon.
21:37And so we had experiments in that Orion itself
21:42looking at things like yeast and seeds and fungi
21:46and how the sort of different setups
21:49and how they may be more adaptable or sustainable in this environment.
21:53Because this is the first time we've been in, you know,
21:57sent a human-rated spacecraft around the moon since the Apollo days.
22:03And so looking at how these are adapting to microgravity
22:06and the radiation that we will see around the moon
22:09because we want to be able to protect our astronauts.
22:13And we even had some of the seeds that came back.
22:16We've actually planted those.
22:18They're going to be the Artemis trees
22:20to see, you know, how the seeds changed
22:23when they were in this environment.
22:25Yes, after sort of the radiation and the conditions of space.
22:28Yes, because we need to understand that
22:30because we do intend to go back and have a sustained presence on the moon.
22:33So, on the Artemis 3 mission, we will have some experiments
22:37that actually look at how plants will adapt
22:40to being on the lunar surface.
22:42We have a geology team that's working with the astronauts
22:45about the different types of rocks and samples
22:47that they will find when we actually go back there.
22:50And then with the ultimate goal of going to Mars.
22:54So thinking about sort of Artemis as lighting our way to Mars
22:58as we move from the moon to Mars and hopefully beyond.
23:01Beyond, yes.
23:03OK, so I'm going to be frank here.
23:05I want to go to the moon.
23:08It's OK. They need a woman on the moon.
23:10I'm just saying.
23:12Right, and so, actually, the Artemis programme will land
23:15the first woman and the first person of colour on the moon.
23:18And we're, you know, very proud of that because science is for everybody.
23:23It's been fun walking around the university where we both studied.
23:27And while 34 years is a fraction of time when it comes to the cosmos,
23:32here on Earth, our understanding has come on leaps and bounds.
23:36We've landed rovers on Mars and discovered thousands of exoplanets.
23:41And so Chris found out what Nicky thought the future could bring.
23:46Is there one dream mission that you'd like from your own science
23:50or that you've seen somebody dream up that you wish could happen?
23:54I mean, we have missions that are coming up soon
23:58that, you know, would have been the dream mission of, you know,
24:0110 years ago or 20 years ago.
24:04Collecting samples from Mars and bringing the samples back
24:08to be able to analyse.
24:10Also launching Europa Clipper.
24:12So flying through these plumes, some sort of material coming from...
24:17Activity, which we did know was there just a few months ago.
24:20Activity, and you can fly through that and say, you know,
24:23what is in those plumes?
24:26Could life have been sustained at some point
24:29underneath the thick crust of Europa?
24:35Due to launch in autumn this year,
24:38Europa Clipper intends to analyse this icy moon of Jupiter.
24:43The prospect of flying through the plumes is spectacular,
24:46a wild adventure, and it's just one of many upcoming missions.
24:51We have the Nancy Grace Roman telescope that will launch in a few years
24:55and then really leaning far forward into a mission
24:58that we're calling the Habitable Worlds Observatory,
25:01so something that is actually designed to not just find planets
25:06that are orbiting distant stars,
25:09but actually find a rocky planet that's just the right size
25:13with an atmosphere.
25:17As well as the excitement of mission planning,
25:19there's a practical side.
25:22Space exploration can be expensive,
25:24so she has to make tough decisions on how best to spend her budget.
25:29How much of your work is thinking about cost?
25:32How much does that constrain what you want to do
25:35when we're thinking about, say, going to Mars
25:37and picking rocks and bringing them back?
25:39I mean, certainly, you know, we have a finite budget.
25:43We're extremely grateful for every penny,
25:45but we do try and have cost caps and manage to those cost caps.
25:50Balancing that must be a headache.
25:53So we have five science disciplines in the NASA science portfolio
25:59and, you know, keeping balance across all of them
26:02so that you have, you know, exciting science going on
26:05in each one of the five missions,
26:07but also a very big diversity of the types of missions,
26:10so from tiny experiments that are on the International Space Station
26:15all the way up to something as big as the James Webb Space Telescope
26:20and also missions that have been in space for 47 years,
26:23our beloved Voyager.
26:24So really keeping that balance is something that I really focus on.
26:28I want to go back to where we started.
26:30What is it about humanity looking outwards that you think inspires people?
26:34I mean, I think when you look at images
26:37from James Webb Space Telescope or from Hubble,
26:40I mean, they're just, they're beautiful.
26:42You know, and you look at them and you just think,
26:45wow, I'm just one tiny, tiny, tiny little piece of this giant universe.
26:51But what I think is really inspirational
26:53is when you look at our planet from space.
26:57We've had the Apollo astronauts that took, you know, Earthrise,
27:00that was really the first time we'd seen our planet.
27:04All the amazing images that we see from the International Space Station,
27:07our own imaging spacecraft.
27:11You look at the Earth and it is so beautiful.
27:15And you don't see borders and you don't see issues.
27:18You just see this one beautiful planet and you think,
27:21you know, that's our planet, that's our home.
27:25And a particular image that I found totally inspirational
27:30is the pale blue dot.
27:31And that is the image when Voyager 1,
27:34on its way out of the solar system,
27:36turned around billions of miles away
27:40and took an image of our planet.
27:43This tiny little blue dot.
27:46And you just think, wow, that's us.
27:49And I think that's incredible.
27:53Well, we'll look forward to more amazing images
27:55from all of your missions.
27:57Thank you very much for talking to us and good luck.
27:59Thank you so much.
28:04Nikki's tireless work and love of the cosmos is truly inspiring.
28:08She just keeps on looking up at the skies in wonder.
28:11So we want to take a moment, as ever,
28:13to share some of the wonderful photos you've sent to our Flickr account,
28:17reminding us of the timeless beauty of the cosmos we live in.
28:32Pete's back with us next month.
28:34If you want to find out what's in the skies in the next few weeks,
28:37please go to our website for Pete's Star Guide.
28:40Also on the website are details
28:42of our upcoming annual Question Time episode.
28:45So if you'd like to ask us a question,
28:47or even be in the live audience,
28:49you can go to bbc.co.uk slash Sky At Night.
28:53Until next month, goodnight.
29:07© BF-WATCH TV 2021