Understanding New Criminal Laws & Their Implications; In Conversation with SC Advocate Ramakant Gaur
Join Oneindia News for an exclusive conversation with Ramakant Gaur, Advocate at the Supreme Court, as we delve into the newly introduced criminal laws and their far-reaching implications. In this in-depth interview, Mr. Gaur provides expert insights on the changes, their impact on the judicial system, and what they mean for the common citizen. Don't miss this opportunity to get a comprehensive understanding of the evolving legal landscape in India.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Law is not static. It develops by itself. So, in the passage of time, whatever the courts
00:08have said, whether it is about digital evidence, or about marital rape, or about women's safety,
00:16all these things are not in the modern laws of today.
00:21Terror crime was first defined in the UAPA. Now they have brought it in the civil security system.
00:31And if we talk about today's 1st of July, how many cases have been dismissed today?
00:38If they want to see, then we will only express sadness on the number.
00:44Namaskar! Welcome to OneIndia. I am Yogi Franka and with me is Yogi Pankaj Mishra.
00:51We are with you because three new criminal laws have been implemented in the country since today.
00:57They were passed in the parliament last year and now these laws have been implemented since 1st July, 2024.
01:04What was the need to implement these laws? What has changed in them?
01:10What will be the facilities for these people? What kind of problems will there be?
01:13We will discuss all these things and we have a special guest with us, Ramakant Gaur.
01:18Ramakant Gaur is a senior advocate in the Supreme Court of India.
01:21Welcome, Ramakant ji.
01:23Thank you, Yogi.
01:25First, let us tell the name of these new laws.
01:28The three new laws that have been implemented since today are
01:31IPC, which used to be there earlier, has now become Bharatiya Nyaya Sanhita 2023.
01:36Since the law was passed last year, it is now 2023.
01:40Then there is Bharatiya Nagraj Suraksha Sanhita, which used to be called CRPC earlier.
01:44Then there is Dand Prakriya Sanhita, which used to be called Dand Prakriya Sanhita in Hindi.
01:48Then there is Evidence Act, which used to be called Bharatiya Saakshya Adhiniyam.
01:53It has now become Bharatiya Saakshya Adhiniyam 2023.
01:56So, these three new laws have been implemented in the country since today.
01:59My first question to Ramakant ji is
02:02Ramakant ji, it is said that colonial laws were in force in our country.
02:08They were in force since British rule.
02:10That is why they needed to be changed.
02:12Was it really necessary?
02:14And have such changes taken place in it?
02:18Look, when we point towards colonial British rule,
02:25then the discussions might become political or intellectual.
02:32The society is progressive.
02:35The law of 1860 has become impractical today.
02:40At that time, it was not possible to talk about digital evidence.
02:45Today, we cannot talk about it without a digital format.
02:49At that time, there used to be a search seizure.
02:52At that time, we could not talk about audio-visual evidence.
02:55Today, we cannot work without it.
03:00When it comes to investigation,
03:02look, the law has changed in three ways.
03:04When you have taken the name of three laws,
03:06let me explain it in a practical aspect for the audience.
03:09The first thing that has changed is that the definition of crimes
03:14and the provision of their punishment have changed.
03:17The second thing that has changed is that
03:19the time required for the trial course has been decided.
03:27Some investigation procedures have been changed.
03:30And the witnesses, how will the courts take them?
03:37How will they get approval?
03:39To what extent will the witness be admissible?
03:43Will it be called primary evidence?
03:45Will it be called secondary evidence?
03:47How will its forensic analysis be done?
03:50And which agency will do its forensic analysis?
03:54And how will the search and seizure be done?
03:57How will the arrest be done?
03:59How will the information be given to the magistrate after the arrest?
04:02If there is a case of suicide,
04:04how will it be informed to the SDM within the stipulated period?
04:09All these provisions have been changed.
04:11So, it was not necessary to change them.
04:16It was necessary.
04:18Today, we are standing on the brink of that necessity.
04:22But yes, at the same time, I will say one thing.
04:25Some laws are very impractical.
04:27For example, it is said that the charge should be framed within 60 days.
04:31The trial should be completed within 180 days.
04:34Is this possible?
04:35You don't have that many magistrates.
04:37If you are a magistrate with more than 10 lakhs,
04:41then how is this possible?
04:43In fact, today, the Home Minister has also said that
04:48the delay in justice,
04:51he has talked about speedy justice.
04:53Today, when he was speaking in the Parliament,
04:55how to speed up the speed of justice.
04:59Mr. Gautam, I would like to know from you,
05:02because you talked about admissibility in the court.
05:05There is also a matter of technical use
05:08to assess the crime or to collect the evidence.
05:12If we talk like a common man,
05:15then in the judicial process,
05:19or organized crime or terrorism,
05:22what kind of change do you see from the old penal court to this one?
05:28See, terror crime was first defined in the UAPA.
05:32Now they have brought it to the IP.
05:34Now they have brought it to the Civil Protection Agency.
05:38The Terrorist Act was defined in the UAPA.
05:42So this definition was taken from there,
05:45imported from there and brought here.
05:48If we talk about sedition,
05:50the offences of sedition,
05:52where a lot of people were persecuted,
05:54you and I have seen a lot,
05:56and our journalist friends have also suffered a lot.
05:59At least there will be a reduction in that.
06:01There will definitely be a reduction in that.
06:03Investigation, yes,
06:05because in the courts,
06:07the courts have also said this,
06:09that you cannot bring this crime in sedition,
06:15if a journalist writes something against the government,
06:18and you file a case of sedition against him,
06:20and whoever the government is.
06:22So that was very uncivilized.
06:25It was not just at all.
06:27And the constitutional courts of the country
06:31gave their response continuously
06:33and considered it wrong.
06:35We would like to understand this a little more from you, Mr. Ramakant.
06:39Because the sedition you talked about,
06:42the state sedition was removed and national sedition was done,
06:46that it has been integrated into one.
06:48Now what will be the definition in this?
06:51As far as we were looking at things,
06:54it is also there that through electronic means,
06:56through writing,
06:58if an attempt is made to break the country,
07:01then that thing will come under national sedition in a way.
07:06Earlier we used to understand,
07:08in a way that the state was said against a particular power or against someone,
07:13and the national state was said against its influence.
07:18Now when this has been collected,
07:20then here this apprehension is also being shown
07:22that the things we saw earlier about sedition,
07:25the danger of that may increase more on the writers,
07:28on the journalists or on other people.
07:31You are a journalist and my relationship with journalism is very old.
07:37I started my career as a journalist.
07:40So writing has always been restricted.
07:44We are not able to write what we want to write.
07:47This is a very bitter truth.
07:49No matter what we say,
07:51it is not freedom to write even today.
07:54Somewhere it is a bond.
07:56But yes, it is still there.
08:00Earlier it was limited to print media.
08:03It did not come out much.
08:05It comes out through all social media platforms.
08:09People say what is in their heart through those social media platforms.
08:13Earlier it used to be a struggle.
08:15And there are many such incidents.
08:18You are familiar with all those incidents.
08:21So writing against the state and against the state power,
08:25and writing against the nation,
08:27at least the courts and the people involved in the judicial process,
08:34understand the difference between the two.
08:36A police officer may be helpless
08:39because of a politician sitting above him.
08:45But the courts see the difference between the state and the state and the nation.
08:51But here we are talking about politics.
08:55If you implicate someone in this matter,
09:02then the court will continue to investigate for 2-5 years.
09:06Then the court will decide whether the person was involved or not.
09:11Whether he was a traitor or a traitor to the state.
09:13Because now he will become a traitor to the state.
09:17You are absolutely right.
09:19And today the Home Minister said that we want to limit the timeline.
09:24We want to give speedy justice.
09:26But if you go to file an FIR today or even after today,
09:32then till there is no big source, the FIR will not be filed.
09:36Today's situation is the same.
09:38And if we talk about today's 1st of July,
09:42then how many cases were dismissed today?
09:46If they want to see, then we will only express sadness on the number.
09:51To say something, to follow it, and to practically implement it in a pragmatic way is a very different thing.
10:00For example, the Negotiable Instrument Act was made because it is a commercial law.
10:05Everything should be decorated within 6 months.
10:08The first date is 8-9 months.
10:12In a few years, the evidence is not complete.
10:15So even then it was a law.
10:17And then the Indian Constitution also said that speedy justice is the truthful justice.
10:25But that does not happen.
10:27Reality is something else.
10:29Now let's talk about bringing audio-video platforms.
10:36You said that the court will run through electronic means.
10:39The classification of the courts was terminated.
10:42Everything will be called Judicial Magistrate.
10:45Very good.
10:46Apart from 9 metropolitan towns,
10:49you tell me, in which city is audio-visual happening today?
10:53My district is 70 km away from here.
10:56I gave an application to the district judge,
10:58sir, listen to my request from a VC.
11:02He said, sir, it is there, but it does not work.
11:06I would like to stop you here.
11:10You said that the FIR should be registered at home.
11:15We talked about police reform.
11:17Commissions were made.
11:18Police reform has not been done in that way.
11:20Is it feasible? Is it practical?
11:22Although it is a good thing if this initiative has been given.
11:25But practically, as you said, how possible is it?
11:27Will I register the FIR at home?
11:30Will action be taken on it?
11:32And will the proceedings go on?
11:35It is a matter of words.
11:41So what is it for ordinary people?
11:43I wanted to say that if we talk about crime against women,
11:48how can it get more strength and teeth?
11:51Look, sir, I said this very lightly that it is a matter of words.
11:58And the fact is that there are a lot of practical problems in front of the magistracy,
12:02in front of the courts, even in front of the government.
12:04A lot of infrastructure is needed.
12:06Today, our country has developed.
12:09Today, we have not been able to develop properly in comparison to the courts.
12:14But if we look at our intent.
12:19See, two things are very important to see here.
12:23The government's intent was definitely seen in these laws.
12:27That they have passed the law.
12:29They wrote this thing.
12:31See, very small things are said about the law.
12:36Law is not static.
12:38It develops by itself.
12:40So in the passage of time, what the courts have said continuously,
12:44whether it is about digital evidence,
12:46whether it is about marital rape,
12:48whether it is about the protection of women,
12:51so all those things are included in today's modern laws.
12:55They have been brought in.
12:57After bringing them in,
12:59there will definitely be teething troubles.
13:01It will definitely take a few years.
13:02But somewhere or the other,
13:04the courts will be offended by this.
13:06Because there is a very important rule in the examination of law,
13:14which is called the Golden Rule of Interpretation.
13:16That according to the Golden Rule of Interpretation,
13:20what is written in the statute cannot go beyond that.
13:23So if it comes in the statute there,
13:27that from 1st July,
13:29whoever commits a crime against a woman,
13:35the punishment for that crime will be such,
13:37its trial will be such.
13:39So the time limit may not be followed.
13:42But the law will remain the same.
13:45And the trial will be according to that law.
13:47And the punishment will be the same.
13:50For example, it has been said that if a woman is below the age of 15,
13:58then a marital rape will not be committed.
14:02The Supreme Court did this at the age of 18.
14:07And this government,
14:09which was in the IPC earlier,
14:11the age limit was 15 years.
14:13Now that limit has been reduced to 18 years by the law.
14:17The age of marriage is also 18 years.
14:20So that's the thing.
14:22But if we look at the practical aspect,
14:24there are still so many child marriages.
14:28Marital rape has not happened yet.
14:30Yes, it will be a long story.
14:33There is a factor where pragmatism will come in a different place.
14:38What is written in the books will come in a different place.
14:41But if there is intention,
14:43we will reach there someday.
14:46I can only hope for that.
14:50Mr. Ramakant, what are the things you go to those legal avenues
14:57where neither all journalists nor the public are allowed
15:02and nor do they have access?
15:04What changes?
15:05If you tell us as a layman,
15:07will the judges also have to read some new rules?
15:10Will some rule book change?
15:12Have you been briefed in any way?
15:14Mr. Pankaj, let me add one more thing to this.
15:17Because it is being implemented from today,
15:19there will be cases according to the new law.
15:21Millions of cases will still be pending in the country before this.
15:24It will be trialed under the same old law.
15:27So these retrospectives will not be applicable.
15:30If it is not applicable in the time frame of the previous crimes,
15:37then they will be dragged into the court.
15:40The cases will continue.
15:42For the lawyer community,
15:44for the judges also,
15:45there will be a trial in the old law.
15:47According to the new law,
15:49there will be a trial of the same crime.
15:51So practically,
15:52how easy or difficult is it for you?
15:54First, let me answer Mr. Pankaj's question.
15:57The limit of journalists is very limited.
16:03When I was a child, I was taught,
16:05wherever you don't reach, you will never reach.
16:07Yes, yes, yes.
16:10So your limits are with Ravi.
16:16Wherever Ravi is, there is a limit.
16:18Now we will have to see how many journalists are less.
16:21Nowadays, few journalists are not able to walk much.
16:26But we are still alive on their basis.
16:29Yes, yes.
16:31Now let's talk about the practical difficulties that will come.
16:36The old law will work,
16:38the new law will also work.
16:40Their list should be different.
16:42The list of this law should be different.
16:44You have to read this too.
16:46Okay, we are those students of the law.
16:48Mr. Pankaj, even after so many years,
16:51even today when I go to file a case,
16:53I try to read that particular law for the first time in the morning.
16:58What is written in it?
17:00So every time I have to read something with a new definition.
17:03So now we will read two laws.
17:05Now we need to study this profession.
17:11It is necessary and necessary.
17:13So we will study and do it.
17:15We are students anyway.
17:17And a student never gets tired or stops.
17:19He just keeps on studying.
17:21He will study and study.
17:23So there will be problems.
17:25According to the law, the cases will also increase.
17:28But a very interesting thing about this profession is this.
17:34If I talk about the judges of India,
17:37most of the judges study.
17:39And if they come after studying,
17:41and if they want to work, then the work will be done.
17:46And if the work is done,
17:48then we will move forward without delay.
17:52This has to happen.
17:54Because time has moved forward.
17:57Today, no matter what we say,
17:59everyone used to talk.
18:01There used to be a ringtone, dial tone phone.
18:03Today, there is no person without a mobile.
18:05Today, no matter where you go on the road,
18:08a person is taking a mobile phone.
18:10So how will he be able to escape the analysis of the mobile phone?
18:14The lawyer could not escape.
18:16The lawyer cannot deviate himself.
18:18The judges will also have to read the evidence of the case.
18:20They will have to read their admissibility.
18:22So the whole process will continue.
18:25So it will take a lot of time.
18:28But we will study.
18:30We will learn something new.
18:32There is a lot to learn.
18:34We learn every day.
18:35We will learn today and tomorrow as well.
18:37Very good, Ramakant.
18:39One more thing, Ramakant.
18:41With regard to the apprehension,
18:44I will tell you in a better way.
18:46The changes that have taken place,
18:49the police have more power.
18:51Maybe the police are getting more power.
18:54The misuse of which can be on a large scale.
18:57The point is,
18:59where is the government of which political party?
19:03Because the police do not have that kind of freedom.
19:06The police process has not improved.
19:08So how do they use it?
19:10For that time.
19:11So it is also being said about the police
19:13that they have more power and misuse it.
19:17What do you think is the change?
19:20You have asked a very beautiful question.
19:22And it will affect all political parties.
19:26In Prakash Singh,
19:28the Supreme Court said that
19:30this code of conduct should be there for the police.
19:33They should be given freedom.
19:35Today Congress is also moving the adjournment motion.
19:38And BJP used to make this noise till yesterday.
19:41You all want police freedom.
19:44You don't have to call the agencies parrot.
19:47You don't have to say this is a caged parrot.
19:50You have to accuse everyone.
19:52So give them freedom.
19:55Today everyone has a problem.
19:57That police or agencies do wrong.
20:01Whoever is in favor or against.
20:03Yesterday they were against.
20:05Today they are in favor.
20:06So they say something else.
20:07So everyone has misused it.
20:10So Prakash Singh, the Supreme Court said
20:12that you give independence,
20:14give freedom to investigate.
20:15No one gave that.
20:16So the rights given to the police,
20:20this is actually alarming.
20:25Because even today we are sitting in Delhi.
20:29Please tell us what is the right
20:31that you are alarming.
20:33Yes, I am coming.
20:35See, custodial torture,
20:38means custodial limitation,
20:41that they are given the right to be in custody
20:44for 30 days instead of 15 days.
20:47In police custody,
20:49tell one of them to stay for 5 days.
20:52For one day, you do opposition.
20:55You gave them 30 days.
20:57In those 30 days,
20:59what will happen to him and his family?
21:04So if we see the cases of custodial torture,
21:09if we only say that the government figures are correct,
21:15then also we get to see
21:17how many fake encounters have happened today,
21:22how the police torture,
21:24how much they beat,
21:26even the medical is not proper.
21:28When you give the police so much right
21:31that they can keep them in custody for so many days,
21:33in charge sheet,
21:35in some offenses,
21:37they will not file charge sheet for 6 months,
21:39till then you will keep them in jail.
21:41If we have given so much right to the police,
21:46then this is a dangerous trap
21:51that a common citizen will be trapped here,
21:54can be tortured,
21:56and in this context,
21:59one thing is for sure that
22:01the courts will have to be more alert.
22:04Because if the courts do not properly examine the powers of the police
22:10and casually give remands,
22:12then there will be a very bad outcome.
22:18A small question comes out of this,
22:21we will not take much time, Mr. Ramakrishnan.
22:23When we see such loopholes in many things,
22:28this may be a political question from my side,
22:32in such a time,
22:34such important laws,
22:35it is not that we have to change it next year,
22:37then after 2 years we have to change it.
22:39Laws are being made for a long time,
22:41laws are being made for whole generations,
22:43there will be amendments from time to time,
22:45okay.
22:46These laws are passed without discussion,
22:48within the parliament,
22:50or when it was passed by the committees,
22:52there too,
22:54some issues were raised on it,
22:57but despite that,
22:58if there are loopholes in this way,
23:00then such discussions may be needed,
23:03we could have waited for a few more days,
23:04we could have discussed more.
23:06Undoubtedly.
23:08Because when you are giving power to someone,
23:11then without putting a bond on his power,
23:15and why is there a parliament?
23:17To make laws.
23:18So to make laws,
23:20if we do not examine the various aspects,
23:23if we do not test,
23:25then we are opening the way to misuse that law.
23:31And the most popular law is
23:33Prevention of Money Laundering Act.
23:35Yes.
23:37It was born in 1995.
23:40And it was implemented in 2002.
23:43Yes.
23:44And even in 2002, the law was still very good.
23:47By adding political color to this law,
23:51all the efforts that were made,
23:53and by the time it came to 2013,
23:56so many, I mean,
23:58the government had a conference,
23:59because it is a political thing,
24:00so I will include politics in it too,
24:04that by the time it came to 2013,
24:06so many changes were made.
24:08And since 2015,
24:10today the situation is that
24:12it has become difficult to get involved in that law.
24:14Yes.
24:15So when you are curtailing someone's process,
24:18someone's freedom,
24:20and doing it without discussion,
24:22then it is very sad.
24:24I don't think it should be done this way.
24:27The POTA law was also a kind of thing.
24:32Like TADA, POTA.
24:33Prevention of Terrorism Act.
24:35And see, Mr. Rawat Khan,
24:37we will end the conversation here.
24:39But the debate you talked about today,
24:42just a while ago,
24:43Rahul Gandhi was speaking in the Lok Sabha,
24:45and it is being said in a lot of historical matters,
24:49and perhaps for the first time,
24:50Rahul Rahul was also chanted in the entire Lok Sabha.
24:54There too, when Rahul Gandhi raised the question on Agni Veer,
24:57and said that,
24:58in a way, Agni Veer is a use-and-throw soldier.
25:02He is not given any kind of facility.
25:04Then the Defence Minister and the Home Minister said,
25:07see, Mr. Rahul,
25:08after a lot of discussion,
25:10after discussion by experts,
25:12then it has been formulated.
25:14So, same, whether it can be said about these new rules or not.
25:17I will say one more interesting thing about Agni Veer.
25:21In the speech of Rajput Mohaja,
25:24for about 30 minutes,
25:25he speaks on the government policies,
25:27especially on defence.
25:29He did not mention Agni Veer even once,
25:32in his speech.
25:34So, if there is such a problem,
25:36then first, the discussion should be done in detail.
25:38Yes.
25:39But, anyway, again,
25:40that, that,
25:41something more.
25:42Yes, please, please.
25:44See, the thing is that,
25:46Rahul Gandhi takes an oath of the Constitution,
25:49and what are the provisions of the Constitution?
25:52If you ask him,
25:53four provisions,
25:55then the tongue will stand up.
25:57Very, very bitter,
25:59and I do not belong to Congress,
26:01nor do I belong to BJP.
26:03It is symbolic, you know.
26:05Absolutely right.
26:07See, when we talk about something symbolic,
26:10then,
26:11there should be some authenticity in it.
26:13Yes.
26:14See, when we say,
26:16law is the same from Kashmir to Kanyakumari.
26:22So, if,
26:24when we say,
26:26if we point it out,
26:28and say something,
26:30then it becomes more effective.
26:32Yes.
26:33By saying it generally,
26:34it only becomes political.
26:36Like, we talked about Agnibir,
26:37now, Rahulji raised a question on Rafel,
26:40called the government a thief,
26:42and then apologized in the Supreme Court.
26:44If you say, then stay.
26:46If you say that you did it wrong,
26:48and he did it wrong,
26:50then keep arguments on it.
26:52Just, till there,
26:54do not oppose it.
26:56Do not stand against it.
26:58Bring it into a constructive debate.
27:00You are a responsible leader,
27:02and you show the future of the country to people.
27:05So, the future of the country should be such that,
27:08I am, in the sense of truth,
27:10that person,
27:12who can be the keyword of this country.
27:14I can be its anchor.
27:16Here, these are the shortcomings.
27:18These can be removed.
27:20It is a constructive argument.
27:22Today, you are in power.
27:24You are in a position to speak your mind.
27:26Today, you are an opposition leader.
27:28So, speak your mind strongly,
27:30and speak logically.
27:32That will be better.
27:34Today, I would like, Ramakant ji,
27:36if you have not seen it,
27:38it is a two-hour speech by Rahul Gandhi,
27:40and there are a lot of sharp notes in it.
27:42Do watch it. I am sure.
27:44I will definitely watch it. Thank you.
27:46Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Amit Shah
27:48got up in the middle of their speech.
27:50Let's hope that this is a good sign
27:52of a vibrant democracy.
27:54And there will be fewer speeches.
27:56And there will be better discussions.
27:58As soon as this law is passed,
28:00the next law should not be passed.
28:02There should be a full discussion
28:04so that the implementation
28:06can be better.
28:08Absolutely. Ramakant Gaul,
28:10their advocate from the Supreme Court.
28:12Thank you so much, Ramakant ji,
28:14for speaking to One India.
28:16And with your input, our viewers,
28:18they will end up being richer
28:20after watching this broadcast.
28:22Thank you so much.