Joe Nicholson is joined by Alex Miller from The Sheffield Star to preview Sunderland’s Championship match against the Owls at the Stadium of Light
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00:00So he clearly came in with a big, big pedigree.
00:05But at the same time, he was sort of looking at it going,
00:09it's his first managerial job.
00:10This club is on fire and not in the in the positive sense, you know.
00:16And he's just come in and made a monumental difference.
00:21And it's difficult to see him
00:24not going right to the top, really, that he's only just turned 35 this week.
00:27And just everything, I mean, the style of play,
00:31the improvement in some of the players is absolutely remarkable.
00:35Paul Valentin, the Spanish right back, is one that
00:40keeps being described by supporters.
00:42His first weeks didn't look anything like a championship player.
00:46And in the space of a few months, he's now
00:50one of the more consistent performers and looks like he's been playing
00:53in the league all his life.
00:54And the groundswell of everything that's happened
00:58has taken the fan base up along with it.
01:02Boney M is a song that keeps being played
01:04to Danny Rowell's chant.
01:07And the club is utterly recognisable,
01:13unrecognisable, rather, from those first weeks.
01:18What are the main changes that he's made?
01:20Has it been tactical changes like a formation tweak
01:22or the style of play?
01:24What are the main things that he's tweaked to get such a big upturn
01:28in terms of results?
01:29Yeah, the tactics can change,
01:32you know, from three at the back to five at the back.
01:34And there's intricate
01:38tactical things that go way, way over my head.
01:41And it takes me about three days afterwards to work out what's gone on there.
01:44So it's clearly very sophisticated on that point.
01:46I think one of the big drivers for him, and he described it as a demand
01:50in his first ever press conference, was intensity.
01:54And when they hadn't had that, they looked like a set of players
01:58that were feeling a bit sorry for themselves in the opening few weeks.
02:01And now I think they've only been outrun by their opponents
02:05and, you know, a handful of occasions under Danny and what he's done.
02:08So just the look and feel of everything, you know,
02:11they don't necessarily press from the front, but everything's
02:15high intensity.
02:17And you can see that it makes life very difficult for opposition teams
02:25and the spirit of the place.
02:26He's a good communicator.
02:27You know, the funds are on board within very early doors.
02:30And obviously, the results have dragged all that with them.
02:34Just looking at recent results, you mentioned, obviously,
02:36it's been a great few months, but it seemed for a long time
02:39that while Sheffield Wednesday were picking up results,
02:41they were still in that relegation zone.
02:43Obviously, they had a lot of points to claw back.
02:45And they seem to be 23rd for quite a long time.
02:47But they've managed to climb out of the relegation zone now.
02:50And looking at the last five results, it's five unbeaten.
02:53Three of them wins.
02:54Beat West Brom 3-0 at Hillsborough last time out.
02:57So just how impressive of recent performance has been
03:00and what sort of kind of form, obviously great form coming into the game,
03:03but how have they been playing coming into the game against Sunderland?
03:06Yeah, good.
03:07I mean, I keep going back to those first few weeks,
03:11but they really were dire.
03:12And the idea of Wednesday scoring three goals in back-to-back games
03:17and winning both those games, it was fanciful for a long, long time.
03:21It's another mark of the job that Danny and his coaching staff have done.
03:26The draw against Stoke was, I think people walking away from the stadium
03:30that day felt it was such an opportunity missed.
03:33Wednesday battered them in the first half and ended up drawing the game 1-1.
03:37And results elsewhere sort of went against Wednesday.
03:42That's been perhaps the most impressive thing in a lot of ways,
03:47the setbacks that Wednesday have had along the way.
03:50And then more or less every single time, they've had a big result off the back of it.
03:54And credit to the players as well as Danny and the coaching staff
04:00who we wax lyrical about quite a lot.
04:05I mean, a 4-0 defeat at Huddersfield in, I think it was February.
04:09Set them nine points back, you know, and you look at that
04:12and you fully expect things to just slide off
04:16and for Wednesday to be relegated in the fashion that perhaps Rotherham have.
04:22But it hasn't been the case.
04:23And yeah, it's testament to a very experienced Wednesday squad as well.
04:28I'm not sure the players have had quite enough credit for what they're doing.
04:33The spotlight is obviously on Danny and he's sort of been given this messiah status
04:36and rightly so, but it's a very experienced group of players,
04:42a lot of whom have sort of been involved in championship relegation battles before.
04:47And for them to adapt to
04:49such a big upturn in what they're being asked to do in terms of intensity and stuff.
04:53A lot of these guys are the other side of 30.
04:57Yeah, it's been very, very impressive indeed.
05:01Obviously, you don't want to speak too soon.
05:03Wednesday only needing a point, as we said, at Sunderland.
05:07There's now a bit of a buffer as well between Plymouth are below them
05:09and then you've got Birmingham in the relegation zone.
05:11So both of those sides have to win and Wednesday have to lose for them to go down.
05:15But does it feel like among the fan base that the hard part is kind of done now?
05:20And kind of what is the mood kind of heading into this last game at the Stadium of Light?
05:26I think someone did the maths and worked out of the teams that can go down,
05:29there are 27 different possible combinations in results for those teams.
05:35Only one of them results in Sheffield Wednesday going down.
05:38Yeah.
05:40If there's any football club on the planet that that could happen to,
05:43it's Sheffield Wednesday.
05:44It just seems to be that that's the reason why, you know,
05:47in conversations that I've had this week and
05:52in the reporting that we've done.
05:56It's just impossible to rule it out,
05:57because mad stuff just happens to that football club.
06:02You know, there's no basis for that on a football point of view.
06:04As you said, five unbeaten and
06:08two wins on the spin and very impressive in doing that.
06:13Yeah, there's just that thing in the back of your head that invariably
06:16the craziest thing seems to happen to Wednesday.
06:20But I think there is a confidence.
06:21So the scenes after the game on Saturday were
06:26jubilant, I'd say.
06:27I wouldn't describe it as overconfidence or anything like that.
06:30I'm not sure between the players and the coaching staff that they'd allow that to happen.
06:35But I remember there was a game earlier on in the season,
06:40you're looking out and the stands are half full and there's the protests.
06:44And, you know, the manager at the time was getting, you know, dogs abuse.
06:48And for that to be all be turned around in a matter of months is...
06:54Yeah, it was a remarkable sight to have a look at the scenes after the last home game.
07:00I'm sure you'd be aware as well that Danny Royal has been linked with the Sunderland
07:05job quite a bit over the last few months.
07:08Obviously, he's been focused on keeping Sheffield Wednesday in the championship.
07:12I think he's got about two years left on his contract.
07:15So correct me if I'm wrong, but kind of have you got the impression that he sees
07:19being at Wednesday long term?
07:21Do you think he sees himself being there next season?
07:24Or obviously there will be a lot of clubs that will be looking at what he's done
07:28and thinking he's could be quite a good manager for them as well.
07:32Yeah, his stock is very, very high.
07:34And I think that's why he's been touted for some of these jobs.
07:39It'll be an interesting few weeks.
07:42He's got...
07:44He's spoken quite candidly, really,
07:46about the assurances that he needs from from the owner,
07:51Dave Pontansiri, who, you know, you
07:55readers and listeners might well be aware, he's sort of a controversial figure.
07:58And
08:02the assurances that he needs is around a proper club strategy.
08:05And that's something that Wednesday haven't really had in the time
08:08that Chancellor has sort of been at the wheel.
08:12Danny comes from a Red Bull background where everything is sort of meticulous
08:16and everything points towards an end goal and is carefully planned.
08:21And obviously, you know, the other clubs that he's worked out
08:25are very, very sophisticated in terms of their off-field infrastructure.
08:29So
08:32it will be
08:33fascinating to see how those conversations go.
08:38And I don't think anyone truly knows.
08:40You know, if you'd spoken to me ahead of
08:43the playoff final last year and said, well, in a month's time,
08:46Darren Moore won't be manager,
08:48I'd have laughed at you.
08:51But
08:53again, Sheffield Wednesday and madness seems to come around.
08:57But yeah, Danny, as I said at the top,
09:01but I think he's got every right to expect to go to go right to the very top.
09:06It's it's been a real pleasure to see what he's done.
09:09And from a Wednesday perspective, let's hope that he does it for a very long time.
09:14Yeah, I'm sure Wednesday staying in the championship
09:16would significantly increase his chance of staying, rather than if they went down
09:20to to League One, then he may look at look elsewhere.
09:23But how will he set his side up this weekend?
09:26Coming back to the game against Sunderland in terms of his system?
09:29And how do you expect them to approach the game at the Stadium of Light?
09:33I've given up on that, Joe.
09:35He's yeah,
09:39a lot of his a lot of his thinking is around keeping the opposition team guessing.
09:43And so when it comes to us, and I'm sure you have to do the same
09:47to predicted lineups,
09:50we've been made to look quite silly and clueless, which isn't far wrong.
09:54Let's be fair.
09:55And yeah, I would expect.
10:01Thing is, he's chopped and changed so much, you know,
10:03that they've had good results on the road, playing a three and a four.
10:09I'm actually not going to give to what I would expect,
10:12you know, if you're if you're a Sunderland fan,
10:15what to expect. High intensity.
10:17I think they'll mix it up in terms of their passing approach.
10:20There were times earlier in the season where
10:23Wednesday seemed hellbent on short passing and playing out from the back.
10:28The last few weeks have seen a little bit of a shift on that front.
10:33Michael Smith, he was the 20 goal man that got them promoted last season.
10:39He's a big target man.
10:40He's a big, big Newcastle United fan.
10:45So that's something perhaps to look out for.
10:48But he's sort of been brought a little bit more into the fold
10:51just to give them the option of going a little bit more direct.
10:55And certainly that seems to have made the players
10:59just a little bit more comfortable, some of the players.
11:01You know, it's these aren't Danny's players.
11:04And asking them to play out from the back at times
11:07just got them into a little bit of trouble.
11:11But yeah, I'm not even going to give you a formation or anything,
11:14because the fact is, I'll be guessing.
11:17Yeah, well, we do predicted lineups as well.
11:20And it was particularly tricky when Alex Neil was in charge of Sunderland
11:23because he changed the shape every single week.
11:25And it was hard to pick a predicted lineup.
11:28But you mentioned some of the players there.
11:30Who are the kind of key players that make this Wednesday side
11:33tick at the minute under Danny Rowland?
11:35Who are the players that Sunderland will have to watch out for?
11:38Yeah, there's a few. We had our...
11:41We do the Star Sports Awards every year, and it's an awards ceremony
11:46that brings in all the local clubs in South Yorkshire.
11:49And so it was down to me and my colleague Joe
11:51to name a Wednesday player of the year.
11:53And I think we spoke about eight different players.
11:56You know, it's not been like there's been one 30-year-old striker
11:59or a goalkeeper that's done eight saves a game and all this sort of thing.
12:04So we gave it to Barry Bannon, who I think is the name
12:08that people reach for and certainly opposition supporters
12:12most associate with Wednesday.
12:14He's not had it all his way this season.
12:16You know, Cisco had him playing in a completely different role.
12:21And there have been times where
12:24I think he'd be the first to admit, you know, games have gone past him
12:27a little bit in a way that simply hasn't happened.
12:30But the last few months, he's just been absolutely remarkable
12:33and keeps Wednesday ticking.
12:37Off the ball as well, he's added a lot to his game,
12:39which at 34 has been very impressive.
12:43Anthony Massaba is Wednesday's top scorer.
12:47When he's good, he's absolutely unbelievable.
12:49And he certainly was against West Brom.
12:52He tore them to shreds down the right-hand side and he's running
12:56and his pace can really hurt opposition teams.
13:01Josh Windas is a player that always seems to come to the fore
13:04at this time of the season.
13:05You know, you look back at his record again, you know, he's had injury problems
13:09and he's been one that maybe has had games that he wouldn't be quite so proud of.
13:13But he's got two in his last two and just a really big game player.
13:20Yeah, those are the three I'd probably pick out.
13:22Ike Ogbo is another.
13:25Paul Valentin, as I mentioned before, on the right-hand side.
13:27The defence has been pretty tidy.
13:29James Beadle is in excellent form in goal.
13:32I'm talking Wednesday up to a big four here,
13:36but there are a lot of players that seem to be in good nick at the minute.
13:41And how do you think Wednesday will be looking ahead to this fixture against Sunderland?
13:44Sunderland, obviously, a side that don't have anything to play for in terms of
13:48they're not going to go up, they're not going to go down.
13:51Haven't won at the Stadium of Light.
13:52I think it's now six.
13:53The last six they haven't won at the Stadium of Light, so not in great form.
13:56So will Wednesday be viewing this as a good fixture to have to get over the line,
14:01to secure their place in the Championship next season?
14:05This sounds good to me, Joe.
14:06You said it perfectly.
14:09As I said, the maddest thing always happens for Wednesday.
14:12But Wednesday will go to attack.
14:15I think there's little doubt about that.
14:17Despite only needing a point, the mindset and the way they go about things
14:21has been so, so important to Danny
14:25and the way that they've managed to pull up this resurgence.
14:30So Wednesday will go for three points.
14:32They said after the Stoke game, there's three games left.
14:37We will get nine points and they're doing that.
14:41So, yeah, if Sunderland get the first goal, it all becomes very, very nervy.
14:50The form guide would point to a Wednesday win.
14:52I think it's worth pointing out, despite the fact that Wednesday are where they are
14:56in the table since Danny came in, I think they're 10th in the Championship.
15:01There have been times where they've been, you know,
15:05sixth or seventh and looking at that, which adds another dimension
15:09to the question of what's going to happen over the next few weeks with the owner.
15:12But this is a good Wednesday side.
15:16And as I say, they'll be going out to win it.
15:20Have you seen much of Sunderland this season?
15:22Aside from, obviously, the game at Hillsborough in the season,
15:24it's always interesting sometimes getting a kind of outside looking in of how Sunderland have done.
15:29Yeah, bits and pieces.
15:32Not so much of the football, you know, that you guys work as hard as we do.
15:37And we see a lot of the goings on.
15:40It's been a turbulent campaign for Sunderland.
15:43And yeah, I've had the impression, not necessarily from you guys,
15:48because as everyone knows, we've got the best jobs in the world,
15:50but that moving on, everyone up there is quite keen to get to the summer and get some change going.
16:00But I mean, it's testament that despite all that turbulence and, you know,
16:04that there's not been a flirtation with anything going south.
16:08And you've sort of slap walked, haven't you, towards the end of the season,
16:13which is a complete contrast to what we've been dealing with.
16:17But I don't know if I should say this, I like Sunderland a lot.
16:21It's a proper club, isn't it? And a proper fan base and some good players as well.
16:27And I think whoever does come in in the summer, hopefully he's not a 35-year-old German called Danny,
16:32but has got a good club and plenty to work with there.
16:37Yeah, certainly a big summer for both clubs with Sunderland.
16:40They have to get the head coach appointment right this summer after parting company with Tony Mowbray
16:45and then with Michael Beale this season and Wednesday as well.
16:48A big summer for them to keep Danny Rolland and assuming they stay up on the last day.
16:53But Alex, just before we leave, we just usually finish by asking our guests for a quick score prediction.
16:59How do you think the game is going to go on Saturday at the Stadium of Light?
17:04I think it'll be tight. It'll be edgy. And on Wednesday, we'll win 7-0.
17:09That would be... I wonder what odds you'd get on 7-0.
17:12No, I'll go for 3-1 Wednesday.
17:21I think it'll be a draw. I think Wednesday we'll get enough.
17:25I think as well, I think it's hard to see the other games going against Wednesday.
17:30Plymouth and Birmingham play Norwich, aren't they? And Plymouth, I think they've got a tough game as well.
17:38So I think they could be maybe losing by halftime and then it could kind of ease the pressure a little bit on Wednesday.
17:44You never know. But I'll go for a draw.
17:46I think Wednesday are in the better form. Sunderland will finish on a high.
17:50I think it will be tight because Sunderland have shored things up a little bit in the back in recent weeks.
17:53They've gone to a back five, playing with wing backs.
17:56That has taken away from their attacking play.
17:58But I'll go for 1-1.
18:00But certainly a big day for Wednesday to try and secure their place in the Championship.
18:05What is remarkable, I was looking at the league table earlier, for as far back as Wednesday were,
18:10and this kind of shows just what a good job Danny Roller has done and also how Sunderland's season has drifted in the second half of the season.
18:16If Wednesday win on Saturday, they only finish three points behind Sunderland, which really seems incredible,
18:21considering where the two sides were in October, November time, particularly when Sunderland went to Hillsborough and had that 3-0 win.
18:29So, yeah, I'd say that's again testament to what Danny Roller has done and also how Sunderland's season has unravelled in the second half of the season.
18:37But Alex, thanks a lot for joining us on the latest episode of the Raw podcast.
18:42And you can find all the latest Sunderland news and build up to Saturday's match over on the SAFC section of the Sunderland Echo website.
18:51Interim boss Mike Dodds will be speaking to the media on Friday morning.
18:55We'll also have live updates, analysis and reaction from the Stadium of Light as Sunderland face Sheffield Wednesday.
19:02It's also a 12.30 kickoff, so remember to get there early on Saturday.
19:07Once again, thanks a lot for listening to the Raw podcast.